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Wednesday, June 02, 2010

Recent comments to "The Pashkevil To End All Pashkevil"

Why not put the PDF up online?

If not, could you please email me a copy?

-micha

By micha on 2010 06 02

Brilliant, timely, and funny. You should be the chief rabbi of RBS!

By shira l on 2010 06 03

OK we just put it up online both in Hebrew and in English. I also improved it a bit by making it a bit uglier.

YH

By Rabbi Yaacov Haber on 2010 06 03

Wonderful and brilliant!

By Helen on 2010 06 04

I did my part to spread the word:
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2010/06/the-pashkevil-to-end-all-pashkevilin.shtml

-micha

By micha on 2010 06 04

I want to see these up on every vertical surface in RBS, Geulah and Bnei Brak!

By Shaul B on 2010 06 07

I apologize for going against the trend of your commentators and followers.
I find this post/er in terrible taste. Gedoley yisrael over the last 50 years have in specific cases made their opinions known to the klal through the medium of public signs.
There is no secret that the chazon ish himself chose this option in several specific occasions. Rav shach has done so.  And the badatz has done so. Including such kdoshim as the minchas yitzchak zt"l.  And r’ mosh aryeh. Zt"l.
The list can go on and on. While there deffinately may be unscrupulous people that that use this medium to express their boich svaras, to blanketly condemn all these chashuva gedoyle oilam in one fell sweep is quite surprising. Even though the chofetz chaim actually said this then at best there is a machlokes she’ll gedoley hadoros and “mi anachnu lehachnis royshaynu bein heharim.”

As far as the recent poster about the high school in rbs, (which assumingly is the straw that broke the camel’s back) there has been no one amongst the gedoylim that had signed the letter, that claimed that it was a forgery, and no one denied the fact that rav eliyashiv himself wrote the actual nusach (though I am not saying that they arranged for it to be plastered on the wall - I am addressing the actual content of the sign which was a verbatim print out of a letter written by rav eliyashiv himself).
The later doesn’t claim to be declaring tradition of ramat beit shemesh, rather of the oilam hatorah and the mesorah of yeshivos midor dor, which started in volozhin and comes down to our dor of yeshivos as they are run in eretz yisrael.

If you doubt the veracity of the letter, being that you are a leader of a kehilla in RBS, I feel you should look into it. If you email me privately, I can give you places to turn to verify the existence of the original letter and signatures

By mr.anonymous.rbs on 2010 06 07

Mr. Anon,
Your posting here on Rav Haber’s blog is a proof to his derech of Ahavas HaTorah and Ahavas Yisrael.
In the unlikely even that pahkevil makers would make a pashkevil blog what do you think the chance of a dissenting opinion being posted would be.
Rav Haber and his kehilla are simply quoting the holy words of the Chafetz Chaim, Zt’’l who was of the greatest ohaivei yisrael in the past 100 years.I would venture to say that the CC is a “yesh yismach” in this regard.
As a member of the RBS Anglo Charedi community I have become sickened by the stances of certain community leaders on issues far more important that whether a Yeshiva w/limited limudei chol can open.
Where are these same leaders when it comes to the high rate of divorce and domestic abuse? Where are these pahkevilim to help root out the plague of those who would hurt children in our midst? Some of the leaders even “strike back” at the brave voices by banning chesed and tzedaka organizations.
If they can find their voice (or pen) to tell us what type of school to make, what chicken to avoid and to “becherem” those who don’t fit their mold then certainly the time has come to rise up and protest the real ills of our society.
Kol Hakavod and Shkoyach to Rav Haber for having the moral stature to speak about this as well as other problems that are causing the decay of the community.

By Mike in RBS on 2010 06 07

mike,
you didn’t address my main issue - that the patshkeville has been an accepted form of disseminating opinions here in eretz yisrael by gedoley oilam. even if the chafetz chaim is a “yesh yismach” you are still sticking your head “between the mountains”

as far as your issue of not addressing the other issues, are you asking these rabbanim to come out with a letter that it is assur to get divorced or that it is assur to abuse children?
every issue you raised is important and every issue has its ways to deal with it. if you don’t see a letter in the street, it doesn’t mean they are not dealing with it in more apppropriate ways.
but all this is irrelevant to the post at hand.here the issue is whether there is legitiacy to patshkevillim

By mr.anonymous.rbs on 2010 06 07

Mr. Anon,

You have skillfully avoided important issues here.
Regarding the fact that many gedolim did and do use pashkevillim doesn’t bind Rav haber to accept this form of communication. he has chosen the derech of the Chofetz Chaim and has a strong source to back up his opinion.
In all respect..the “cop out” of the rabbonim who choose not to openly protest against the ills of society yet will openly condemn yeshivos, tzedaka organizations, etc just doesn’t hold water.
If they can find a voice for their pashkevillim they can also find a way to condemn abusers IN PUBLIC.
It is only through public awareness that these issues will truly be addressed.

By Mike on 2010 06 08

A huge yashar koach to you for creating this! It’s very refreshing to see someone address our achdut issues. Kol hakavod!

By toby on 2010 06 08

Mike,
While you have pointed out the obvious, that Rav Haber has taken the side of the chofetz chaim, my question to Rav Haber was just that- how can someone take such a side in a machlokes of gedoley oilam. This is not a halachic issue of borer or hilchos yom tov that one can say that he learnt the sugya this way or that way, it is a machlokes that is relevant to the leadership of klal yisrael. Perhaps Rav Haber himself will explain.
I don’t understand what you keep talking about all ills of society. If you mean abuse, then what is it exactly that you want the rabbanim to say publicly?  If you believe that they do not deal with those issues then you are ignorant of these rabbanim and their ways.  They have dealt with these issues many times and have succeeded in removing such offenders from our midst, when it was possible. If it was possible to remove the yeshiva high schools from our midst without signs, then they would. However, it didn’t work so they resorted to signs.
Perhaps you don’t feel that it is an important issue, however some people do.

By mr.anonymous.rbs on 2010 06 08

Re Mr. Anonymous:

If you ever read posters or haredi media, you’ll see that they have certainly taken open sides in a machlokes between gedolim about secular studies and Zionism. They often don’t hesitate to criticize gedolim who disagree with their community’s worldview, as is their prerogative. That’s how these things work.

By Baruch Pelta on 2010 06 08

Kol HaKavod!  I will share this with folks in my own community who do the same thing in the local Jewish paper instead of the street walls.  The lesson of how to publicly treat and debate with fellow Jews certainly applies to all Jews and not just the frum communities of Israel.

By Scott Aaron on 2010 06 08

Reb Baruch,
while this may be true, the details might change from case to case.
In cases where there is a machlokes and one side is continuing their mesora from their Rebbeim who took on that side, then they may be justified in taking sides.
However, in this issue at hand, there is no split between the mesorah of the Chofetz Chaim and those that came after him, in fact many of the same Gedoilim that put out patshkevillim were considered to some extent talmidim of the chofetz chaim.
therefore for someone to take sides in this issue is being “machnis royshoi bain hharim” and therefore i have requested that Rav Haber Shlit"a explain on which basis he has decided to do so

By mr.anonymous.rbs on 2010 06 08

I see the Gaivad of Yerushalayim Badatz Eidah Chareidis, Rav Weiss Shlita agrees with me.

http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/הגריט-וויס.html

By Yaacov Haber on 2010 06 08

Rabbi Haber,
the link doesn’t work, but i assume that you are reffering to his recent statement about those that are being mevaze talmidey chachomim.
i don’t know what specific case got him annoyed, but this case is different and you could be sure that the eidah will continue puttng letters on the wall. he was refferring to a specific kind of patshkevill and not to all. the one on the high school deffinately doesn’t come under that category as no name was mentioned and there are no talmidey chachamim involved in opening the school.
you’re patshkeville migh actually come under his category as it is a response to a letter written by Rav Eliyashiv himself.
also, i highly doubt that your opinion was determined by this statemnt of Rav Weiss. please explain what your reasning really is.
thank you .

By mr.anonymous.rbs on 2010 06 08

Here is a shorter link to the above

http://bit.ly/dzsStJ

By Yaacov Haber on 2010 06 08

In cases where there is a machlokes and one side is continuing their mesora from their Rebbeim who took on that side, then they may be justified in taking sides.
Indeed, and they may even quote rabbis who aren’t of their mesorah to attempt to prove their point (as the JO was wont to do with the Rav’s 1941 speech). So somebody following a different mesorah—say, the living mesorah of talmidim of the Rav, who was against what he called “poison pen posters” and bans—can quote the Chofetz Chaim. Indeed, talmidim of that derech should also try to be independently minded, as the Rav himself noted that he tried not to impose his views on others (see the Jewish Observer’s obituary and also http://www.lookstein.org/articles/soloveitchik_posek.htm)

By Baruch Pelta on 2010 06 09

"1941”
excuse me, should be 1940.

By Baruch Pelta on 2010 06 09

"1941”
excuse me, that should be 1940.

By Baruch Pelta on 2010 06 09

Mr Anon,

You said: If you doubt the veracity of the letter, being that you are a leader of a kehilla in RBS, I feel you should look into it. If you email me privately, I can give you places to turn to verify the existence of the original letter and signatures.

OK, let’s verify it.  Please send me sources to prove that Rav Elyashiv wrote that pashkevil, or that any of the other gedolim signed it.  You can email me at sbehr.at.sabreton.com.  (I promise not to unmask your anonymity.)

By Shaul B on 2010 06 09

Yasher Koach, Great Article!
Once there are so many forgeries on the pashkevillim,they have lost their chezkas kashrus of being from the Gedolim. It is time for the Gedolim to find a new venue to let Klal Yisrael know their opinions.

By binyamin on 2010 06 09

Mr. Anonymus: you wrote:
the one on the high school deffinately doesn’t come under that category as no name was mentioned and there are no talmidey chachamim involved in opening the school.

Ahem. aside from being a low shot, the phrase ‘there are no talmidey chachamim involved in opening the school’ is not factual.

At a preliminary meeting, two prominent charedi rabbonim in RBS alef were present and supportive, although I do not have permission to put their names on the internet in relation to this subject. a letter was written by Rav Shapiro, Rav of Aish Kodesh (Piasetz).

To say that no talmidei chachomim are involved, with the inferred slur on the roshei hayeshiva of this yeshiva; for that is what it is, is exactly the type of loshen hora, rechilus and/or motzei shem ra the Chofetz Chaim, Ztz"l was talking about.

If you don’t want to send your son to this yeshiva, or advise others to, then don’t. They are not in Yerushalayim where there was a ban put on teaching secular subjects, because of the missionaries and reformers who used schools and hot lunches to entice children of the old yishuv away from yiddishkeit.

Even in the days of the yishuv, there were boys apprenticed to tradesmen to learn a trade, if they were not able (financially or scholastically) to sit and learn all day. The fallout rate of the olim chadashim in Ramat Beit Shemesh is something we will all answer for in shamayim if something like this yeshiva is not allowed to succeed.

By mrs. anonymous on 2010 06 10

Mrs.Anonymous (not my wife - I hope LOL)
As far as the talmid chacham line, I had not heard of any talmidey chachamim involved in opening the school. I apologise. In all the debates I have had on this topic, both on line and off line, I hadn’t heard any names of Rabbinic figures being involved. If indeed there are, I stand corrected and publicly apologise.
As far as your second point, I would like to discuss this issue. I don’t understand the connection between “this type of Yeshiva” and saving boys from going off the derech.
This “Yeshiva”, as far as I understand, differs from a regular yeshiva in one way - instead of resting or playing during bein hasedarim, like in regular Yeshivos, these boys will be studying limudey chol.
This sounds like a tremendously more intensive program than a regular yeshiva, as anyone who learnt full time can attest to the ramifications of eliminating a bein hasedarim.
Most of the boys who are hanging out in the park are the result of either disfuctional familes, child abuse, or learning dissabiltie that caused them to fall through the cracks. Take a poll and u will see that most of these boys fit this description or ask the hakshiva organisers.
It is a tremendous myth to say that a high school with limudey chol would counterbalance any of these symptoms. These boys need yeshivohs that are much less intense and that perhaps give some counseling and deal with these issues.
I myself was once involved in helping someone look for a yeshiva that caters to these boys needs, and you will be surprised at the plethora of finely run institutions that are out there across the country, all without limudsy chol.
Of the thousands of boys that enter yeshiva ketanahs every year in eretz yisrael, are you saying that the boys that are planning on going to this high school, can’t find a group of guys similar to hom that are going to a yeshiva kettanah?

By mr.anonymous.rbs on 2010 06 10

Mr. Anon said:
“Most of the boys who are hanging out in the park are the result of either disfuctional familes, child abuse, or learning dissabiltie that caused them to fall through the cracks. Take a poll and u will see that most of these boys fit this description or ask the hakshiva organisers.”

I would venture to say (being that I am invloved with teens) that most of the kids in thepark are there because of the lack of acceptance by their Charedi community. They see sinas chinam,downing other shitos and being machmir on issues that don’t need chumros. How could one expect a child/teen exposed to this to react? Why should they want a part of this political farce that calls itself Torah Judaism?

You also made the point that kids are out there becuase of child abuse.

If this is true can you imagine what these kids feel when they see honored rabbonim in the community who refuse to deal with the issue? Do you expect them to want to remain frum when sectors of the community attempt to silence the voices who wish to protect the children?

perhaps if we opne a yeshiva that has limudei chol, gives kids the opportunity to earn a living and fosters true ahavas Yisrael the amount of kids in the park just may dwindle.

By Mike on 2010 06 10

In reply to my post:
Mr. Anon, apology accepted.

While some of the kids are victims of child abuse, dysfunctional families and learning disabilities, I think some just don’t understand the unexplained ‘NO’ of so many things in the chareidi world. This type of yeshiva allows the young man who doesn’t excel in gemara to excel, in perhaps, math. he then feels good about himself. Some of the families became dysfunctional after coming here without enough research and the parents are conflicted about the lack of secular education in the high school age yeshivas. This yeshiva will resolve that conflicted state of things in the home, and resolve a lot of the dysfunction.
I wish you a good shabbos, and think the topic has exhausted itself.
mrs. anon, definitely not your wife.

By mrs. anonymous on 2010 06 11

Mr. Anonymous,

You say that it is common knowledge that gedolim prefer to spread their word through pashkevil. I don’t know about that, but it is common knowledge that Gedolim do not make their life decisions based on pashkevil. Neither should you.

Does your wife wear a Sheitel? Do you listen to the the music of “Chotim Umachtim es harabim” such as Scweckey, Streicher, MBD Fried?
Do you have an approved cell phone? Do you buy Balonim off a truck? Do you own a computer? Do you use the i....t?
Did you follow Baba Sali’s endorsement of Shas in the last election? Did you follow Baba Sali’s endorsement of Aguda in the last election? Did you follow Baba Sali’s ruling not to participate in the last election? Do you believe that Bab Sali is no longer alive?

All of the above are on Pashkevilin with signatures.

I listen to Gedolim too. But, like the Gedolim, I don’t trust Pashkevilin.

By Ziskind on 2010 06 11

Reading Ziskind’s comment made reading all the other comments worth it. Sh’koyach.

By Shmeel on 2010 06 12

On the auspicious occasion of the grand plastering of RBS with our new pashkevillim, I would also like to report back on the discussion that happened offline with “Mr Anonymous”.  A month ago (see previous comments), on behalf of Rav Haber I challenged Mr Anon to produce his proof that Rav Elyashiv had had anything to do with the anti-Yeshiva-HS pashkevil, which he agreed to do on condition that it would have a nafka mina; Rav Haber promised to consult Rav Elyashiv personally if it could be proved that the latter had issued a ruling against the Yeshiva High School.

Well, it’s a month later, and Mr Anon has yet to produce the goods; he has not even responded to any emails I sent him recently reminding him of this challenge.

So - shock and horror! - it seems that the signatures on the anti-YHS pashkevil were also fraudulent.  Just like all the rest.

By Shaul B on 2010 07 11

My personal favorite pashkevil is the double page ad about the mehadrin bus line - they cover two pages with fire and brimstone but don’t think to give any info whatsoever about where the mehadrin bus lines run from, times, etc.

By Mark on 2011 02 07

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